Forum Espirita

*
  • Moderadores
  • Regras
  • Sobre
  • FAQs
  • Contactos
Por favor Entre ou registe-se.

Entrar com nome de utilizador, password e duração da sessão
  • Início
  • Pesquisa
  • Contato
  • Salas de Chat
  • Entrar
  • Registe-se
  • Forum Espirita »
  • OUTROS IDIOMAS »
  • Spiritism - English »
  • Blindly Worshipping Jesus by Spiritists

Aumentar pontos de Participação:  
O que pensa sobre esta mensagem?
Gostei Não gostei  
Comentar:

« anterior seguinte »
  • Imprimir
Páginas: 1 [2]   Ir para o fundo

Autor Tópico: Blindly Worshipping Jesus by Spiritists  (Lida 11937 vezes)

0 Membros e 1 Visitante estão a ver este tópico.

Offline Leeloop

  • Mundo Primitivo
  • *
  • Mensagens: 4
  • Participação: 1
  • Leeloop has no influence.
  • Sexo: Feminino
  • Relevância: +2
  • Cidade: Rio de Janeiro
  • País: Brasil
Re: Blindly Worshipping Jesus by Spiritists
« Responder #15 em: 16 de Abril de 2013, 20:12 »
0Gostou?
Regardless of most spiritists here believing Jesus to have a ruling position in the planet, I honestly don't believe they think Jesus is the only way to spiritual growth. At least, I hope not. And despite cringing every time I hear this, I wouldn't rule it out altogether. Personally, supposing it's legit, I'm sure Jesus would be cool with people of every faith (or none) as long as they were decent human beings.  :)
How cool would it be to have everyone who leaves our physical plan to send us news, at least to their loved ones, to let them know they got there alright.  ;D

Registado

Offline Paulo Morasca

  • Mundo Primitivo
  • *
  • Mensagens: 6
  • Participação: 2
  • Paulo Morasca barely matters.Paulo Morasca barely matters.
  • Relevância: +1
  • Cidade: Recife - PE
  • País: Brasil
Re: Blindly Worshipping Jesus by Spiritists
« Responder #16 em: 07 de Abril de 2016, 22:27 »
0Gostou?
Good afternoon! I agree with most of you, regarding the attempt to transform Spiritism in Brazil in some kind of Catholicism. I must say that this ideas are really dangerous. And I say this because of my own experience. If you allow me a little personal story, let me tell you why.

In 2008, I had depression, and, due to have being raised by a Catholic school - which had truly hurt me -, I had excluded from my principles all that could denote spirituality. I was, in a word, a materialist. However, getting in tune with the Kardec teachings, I started to enjoy myself in that feeling of hope so known among people who had found some reasonable meaning for their lives. I was thrilled. I read the Codification, started studying it, I even started working in the group which have helped me, with the most awe-inspiring pleasure.

Then again, after long nights of studying Kardec, I was told to look for the André Luiz series, which began with "Nosso Lar". They told me (and by 'they' I mean virtually everybody that I knew) that not only this work was the complementation of the Codification, but that actually Chico Xavier would be the reincanation of Hyppolite. I was astounded.

This amazement, together with my weakness during the disease, and the support of all around me, made me accept everything that was in it. I didn't digest it too well - it was far from what I had felt with Kardec - but I thought this was because of my inferiority. I assumed that I was not worthy to put questionings of this things, and I believed it - faithfully, and without the necessary analysis.

A certain time later, I saw a video of Chico Xavier in Youtube, in which he categorically says that the military regime here in Brazil was "one of the most dignifying situations". Again, I was astounded and disappointed. And because this man was such a beacon to all of the Brazilian spiritists, I immediately abandoned my studies and started to look the same consolation that I have felt in some other philosophies.

Time passed.

About two weeks ago, something was telling me that this all was very wrong; I missed the Doctrine, its incredible teachings, so I starded to make a little research of my own. How impressed was I when I found that not only there were people who thought like me, but that an extense research was made by various students, and that this problem began early in the nineteenth century, with Roustaing. Hope was renewed.

I told you all of this because we have to be extremely careful with what we accept as the constitution of the Doctrine. If the works of Roustaing, Chico Xavier, among many others, were considered simply as the personal view of this or that spirit, I would have been wrong in doubting. But all the communications came through only one medium, and that is diammetrically opposed to the teachings of the Superior Spirits. I didn't notice that at the time, because how can you make such assertion without being told that you are "obsessed", as if obsession would completely obliterate our capacity of judgement and thinking! I saw that happening, and not only once.

I post a lecture by Sergio Aleixo bellow, an excellent speaker, with the proofs of what I'm saying. He compares the texts of Emmanuel/André Luiz and The Codification and shows... Well, that you will have to see for yourself. The lecture is in Portuguese, but if you have any doubt, you are welcome to ask here, and I will do the best I can to explain the things concerning our language, if you can't.

Thank you for your topic, is good to know that I have someone to talk to about these things.

Peace and Love to all!


(Hope I was understood, my english is kinda rusty).

This is the link to the video:

https://youtu.be/4h4r6CxP8Rs

 


« Última modificação: 07 de Abril de 2016, 22:45 by Paulo Morasca »
Registado
Estamos no final da fila,
como alunos que perderam a hora.
Aprender sem julgar
é o que nos desafia!

Online toni oliv

  • Mundo Primitivo
  • *
  • Mensagens: 5
  • Participação: 1
  • toni oliv has no influence.
  • Relevância: +2
Re: Blindly Worshipping Jesus by Spiritists
« Responder #17 em: 08 de Abril de 2016, 03:00 »
0Gostou?
Hi, brothers, sisters and fellows in the spiritist belief! Excuse me for meddling in the discussion and pardon my english errors, but I'd like to express my personal viewpoint about this conflictual question in the brazilian movement. Regarding Jesus, the definite answer and most apprehensible is in the question 625 of The Spirit's Book:

What is the most perfect type that God has offered to man as his guide and model?

"Jesus."

Jesus is the type of the moral perfection to which man may attain upon this earth. God offers Him to our thought as our most perfect model and the doctrine taught by Him is the purest expression of the divine law, because He was animated by the divine spirit, and was the purest being who has ever appeared upon the earth.

If some of those who have professed to instruct man in the law of God have sometimes led him astray by the inculcation of error. it is because they have allowed themselves to be swayed by sentiments of too earthly a nature, and because they have confounded the laws which regulate the conditions of the life of the soul which regulate the life of the body. Many pretended revealers have announced as divine laws what were only human laws, devised by them for serving their own passions and obtaining dominion over their fellow-men.



The complements on the personality and importance of Christ according to spiritism lie in the subsequent questions and all over the codification, to the point the Spirit of Truth states that all the truths are found in christianism, which was reiterated many times by the spirit exponents in those Kardec's days and is now evoked by the recent works through mediums such as (and primarily) Chico Xavier when one says spiritism is the primitive, revived christianism. First, there is no personalism nor mysticism in considering the teachings of Jesus as ruling maxims for the whole humankind, for if it weren't named Christianism, it could be called Universal Religion, Love, or any other kind of word that expresses the essence of the laws trusted by God to the most perfect guide for us to be redeemed. Also, would there be little reason of being for the doctrine if we don't consider these fundamental statements made by the Spirit of Truth and all his pleiad, which exalt even more the omnibelevolence of God, showing us that our evolution is cooperative and sending
even His pure and most direct servers, who work continuously in our assistance, to our plane.
For even more clarifying explanation about pure spirits and the Christ, we should as well consult the Revue Spirite, and here is one of the many opportune sites that compilate some refinements present in the periodical, that are often overlooked:
http://www.aeradoespirito.net/ArtigosPN/JESUS_ESPIRITO_SUPERIOR_OU_PURO_PN.html
It might also be relevant, based on those informations, to take in account that the spiritual evolution, in its ascension towards higher degrees in the spiritist scale, is neverending (Question 100 of The Spirit's Book: The classification of spirits is based upon the degree of their advancement, upon the qualities which they have acquired, and upon the imperfections from which they have still to free themselves. This classification, however, is by no means absolute. It is only in its totality that the character of each category is distinctly marked, for each category merges in the one above it by imperceptible gradations, the peculiarities of the successive categories shading off into one another at their extremities, as is the case in the various reigns of nature, in the colours of the rainbow, in the phases of a human life. Spirits may, therefore, be divided into a number of
classes more or less considerable, according to the point of view from which we consider the subject (...)."

In addition, in the Revue Spirite of 1862, the spirit Lacordaire affirms that we can call "Christs" a top degree of the pure spirits in that hierarchy.

Thus, considering the whole Third Revelation presided by the Spirit of Truth, in conformity to God's will, finally we may approach the destinations of the current spiritist movement. My position is in defense of the works developed in our country, particularly those propagated by Chico Xavier: a virtuous man, through whose mediumship hundreds of spirits have communicated in the most several types of subjects, producing more than 450 books, ten thousands of comforting letters and a legacy to millions of people, simply changing the destiny of Spiritism, then how can we claim decidedly that he suffered some kind of serious deception, when his actions and the books received by means of his faculties only showed love, and that God have allowed such manifestation? How would it be considerable, in sake of the "orthodoxy", to consider all the intelectual material provided by his servitude in a life of humility as a mere lie, following that "It's better to reject 10 truths than accepting a lie" without further dedication into the matter, when several people testified his example and the coherence of the teachings revealed, including Herculano Pires, a firm defender of Kardec and the codification? And Chico is just one example (the most outstanding though), besides many others, such as Divaldo Franco, Raul Teixeira, etc; in accordance to the universal control of the spirits' teaching: in any mediunic reunion that we go, we may find practical confirmation to these recent ideas in spiritism, which aren't necessarily new, but are arised when comprehension is possible and necessary.

For instance, the notion of spiritual colonies, which have been expressed by several mediums in the 18th, 19th and 20th century, such as - besides Swedenborg - Louis Alphonse Cahagnet, Andrew Jackson Davis, G. Vale Owen, and who knows, by those unnoticed to history?. Then in Brazil, by Chico Xavier and more hundreds, logically consistent, coherent with a good God, who destines us to a true spiritual life where our experiences and freedom is enhanced, and attested in spiritist centers' activities; just in the right time. A universal mystifying? I don't think so. The spiritist revelation is progressive and each teaching brought from the heavenly spheres have come, again, in the right time, this so since Moses and since the beginnings of mankind. God never abandons us, and who knows how He manifests, but everything that has been shown to this day, including and mainly for us in spiritism, has its purpose.

Kardec spent 10 years in investigation of the spiritual phenomena to be certain of conclusions, to publicate the Spirit's Book, and totalized more, for his experience to confirm the whole basis codified by him, so let's follow his example. I'm just starting to dedicate myself on studying and meditating about this beautiful doctrine, I don't want to promote a clash due to these ideas, shared to be discussed, generate reflections and aprimorate ourselves. I'd like also to recommend the watching of speeches by Haroldo Dutra Dias, who wonderfully links Chico Xavier's psychographies, the codification and Christ's teachings, with emphasis on Judaism tradition.

Peace to us all and may God illuminate us as ever!





Registado

Offline Paulo Morasca

  • Mundo Primitivo
  • *
  • Mensagens: 6
  • Participação: 2
  • Paulo Morasca barely matters.Paulo Morasca barely matters.
  • Relevância: +1
  • Cidade: Recife - PE
  • País: Brasil
Re: Blindly Worshipping Jesus by Spiritists
« Responder #18 em: 08 de Abril de 2016, 04:20 »
0Gostou?
Good evening, everyone!

I read your text, toni oliv, and I agree with you in some points; let's make clear here that I don't doubt the mediumship or good intentions of Chico Xavier - that is not the point. The point is (and this is said in The Spirits' Book): high morality isn't a guarantee for receiving messages that can become part of the body of the Doctrine. This is the statement of the Superior Spirits. Allan Kardec had tremendous care in this respect, consulting with different mediums around the world, comparing their writings with one another and, later, passing them through reason. If something doesn't make sense, the Spirits say, you should reject it. Forgive me if I bring this subject here, but I don't have any intentions in creating dissensions; my only goal is to discuss and grow. I don't think that's something to reprove, but to be encouraged. Let's remember that the moral aspects, though the center of the Doctrine, derivates of the scientific and philosophic investigations: we cannot put it aside. I do not affirm, as somebody would think, that Xavier hadn't given us great communications; what troubles me is some principles that are brought by Emmanuel, for instance, that goes extremely opposite of what The Codification has shown. Well, if something is complementary of another, it must add information, not oppose to it. (I refer again to the video of the lecture, it is very enlightening). I will give you an example:

In the Spirit's Book, question 298, Kardec asks:

Citar
The souls that must unite are predestined to this union since its origin and each one of us has, in some part of the Universe, its half to which, fatally, one day, will reunite?

Answer: No; there isn't a particular and fatal union between two souls. The union exists between all spirits, but in different degrees, according to their category, that is, according to the relative perfection they have achieved: the more perfect, the more united they are. From disagreement are born all human evil; from mutual understanding results complete happiness.

And later, in Kardec's commentary:

Citar
The theory of the eternal halves is an allegory that represents the union of two matching Spirits: is an expression used even in common language and must not be taken literally; the spirits that have used them, surely do not belong to the most elevated order; the range of their ideas is, necessarily, limited and they expressed their thought through terms they would have used during their bodily life. We must, therefore, reject this idea of two spirits, created for one another, having to, fatally, one day reunite in eternity, after being apart during a more or less long period of time.

Now, let's hear what Emmanuel says about it (this is from the book "O Consolador" - I don't know how they translated this in english):

Citar
323. Is it true the theory of the soulmates?

Answer of Emmanuel: In the sacred mistery of life, each heart possesses in the Infinity your own soulmate, the divine companion in the journey to glorious immortality.

This is only one of the innumerable contradictions between The Superior Spirits and Emmanuel. Well, either something is true, or it isn't. If it's truth in Kardec, it is a mistake in Emmanuel, and vice-versa. We can't escape that. It is to be expected that some knowledge regarding the material world - or even the spiritual world - must come in the right time. In this case, the Spirits will say that we're not ready to receive them yet, or that the informations they brought are incomplete, waiting for further development; but it is absurd to consider that such Spirits would say something false because of that. One of them is with the truth: I, personally, prefer to believe in something received by hundreds of mediums throughout the world, as was made the Spirit's Book, as to accept something told by one Spirit, through only one medium.

I repeat; I'm not doubting Xavier's moral force; I'm just assuming that not all Spirits tell the truth, even less one that puts the title of the first book he writes as his own name: Emmanuel. Isn't this a little arrogant for a spirit supposed to be elevated?

And another thing, to wrap it up: isn't it strange that a medium would be pratically forced by his guide to write more that 400 books, despite the immense ammount of energy required from him and his own will? Because if you read Xavier's biography, you'll see that he suffered a lot with Emmanuel's reproaches, like if he was some kind of soldier of Christ, destined to suffer in his life, to complete an alleged mission: about this, Kardec says that the good Spirits never try to force anything upon the mediums. If they are not heard, they just go away. So, to act like that is, to say the least, unreasonable. Again, it's that Catholic vision of the mortification of the body - an idea that the Superior Spirits have put down to the ground many, many times.

There are other things also, but I have written too much by now - the video will give you a larger idea.

May Jesus bless us all.


« Última modificação: 08 de Abril de 2016, 04:49 by Paulo Morasca »
Registado
Estamos no final da fila,
como alunos que perderam a hora.
Aprender sem julgar
é o que nos desafia!


  • Imprimir
Páginas: 1 [2]   Ir para o topo
« anterior seguinte »
 

Comente no facebook

Assuntos relacionados

  Assunto / Iniciado por Respostas Última mensagem
JESUS

Iniciado por Ana Ang Poesia

1 Respostas
2747 Visualizações
Última mensagem 07 de Julho de 2010, 21:43
by hollanda
NÓS E JESUS

Iniciado por Ana Ang Mensagens de Ânimo

0 Respostas
2076 Visualizações
Última mensagem 28 de Abril de 2007, 05:26
by Ana Ang
Jesus

Iniciado por *Leni* Sugestões

1 Respostas
2706 Visualizações
Última mensagem 15 de Novembro de 2008, 06:37
by Diegas
Sentir como Jesus sentia, viver como Jesus vivia...

Iniciado por filhodobino « 1 2 » Auto-Conhecimento

24 Respostas
11065 Visualizações
Última mensagem 26 de Fevereiro de 2011, 20:05
by filhodobino
Jesus e o dia a dia do Cristão, Jesus é Amor

Iniciado por andreia de almeida marque Artigos Espíritas

0 Respostas
2016 Visualizações
Última mensagem 23 de Setembro de 2011, 00:10
by andreia de almeida marque

Clique aqui para receber diariamente novidades do Forum Espirita.


Estudos mensais

Subscreva canal youtube

facebook-icontwitter-icongoogle-plus-icon (1)

Resumo diário

O seu e-mail:


 
Receba no seu e-mail um resumo diário dos novos tópicos.
No e-mail de ativação vai receber oferta de 4 audiolivros espíritas.

Pesquisar assunto



Pesquisa avançada
  • Mobile


    • Powered by SMF 2.0 RC3 | SMF © 2006–2009, Simple Machines LLC